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[Music]

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hello and welcome to the antique auction

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forum podcast we're recording live

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stream on YouTube and we're gonna be

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talking Leonardo today about the recent

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450 million dollar it actually shattered

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the world record previously was 300

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million for any artwork at auction so

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we're gonna be talking about that and

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before I introduce our guest just a

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little bit about the show I started this

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podcast back in 2009 there are over 180

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free podcasts at antique auction forum

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calm and you're welcome to check those

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out there you can put them on iTunes

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your media player or whatever a lot of

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informational things there my background

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in a nutshell I'm second generation

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auctioneer antique and fine art

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appraiser and I've been loving what I

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have been doing since 1970 and that

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includes auctioneering appraising

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estates corporate and institutional

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collections and cataloging at auction

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houses all around the US my appraisal

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website is seaboard appraisals dot-com

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now about our gas Martin Kemp he has an

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amorous research professor in history of

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art at Oxford University he has written

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and broadcast extensively on imagery in

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art and science from the Renaissance to

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the present day Leonardo da Vinci has

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been the subject of his books written by

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him including Leonardo

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that's an Oxford University Press in

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2004 and you can find out more about

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martin at martin duck I should say WWE

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Martin J Kemp K EMP calm all right so

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welcome to the show Martin a pleasure to

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be on yes and you were on before we

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talked about another discovery which is

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very I mean here like it's a once in a

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hundred year experience discovering an

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unknown da Vinci but there is actually

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another one floating out there we'll

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talk about that later on if you want to

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or you know updates on that one quickly

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because you were on the show about that

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for at one time that's right yeah so

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we'll talk a little bit about that later

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on but for the listener can you just let

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us know how you got interested in the

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subject of da Vinci in the beginning it

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was kind of accidental in a way I didn't

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study him and I was doing postgraduate

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studies and in any detail I thought he

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looked big and difficult and it was a

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kind of accident a young TV producer of

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training with the BBC was going to do

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his diploma program not to be

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transmitted but just as a graduation

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program as it were and he chose to do it

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alone others water drawings and clearly

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he went to the big people like ants gum

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brick and john sherman who as a student

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of and they weren't going to do a

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program that wasn't be transmitted and

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somewhere along the line they came to me

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and they said would you help and I said

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yes not knowing even vaguely how I was

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going to do that and it's gone brick

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lent us his then unpublished paper on

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the form of movement in air and water

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looking at all the vortex configurations

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and all these exciting drawings and

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reading the gum brick paper I thought ah

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I know what's happening here I felt like

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I was coming home in a way that my

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background and Natural Sciences at least

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meant I had and some feeling and sense

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of what was happening and in such things

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and I did a geology also at Cambridge so

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it just seemed to make sense and having

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worked on that program on on the known

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of drawings of water I don't know where

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they chose that I thought where do I

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begin with Leonardo I was mainly Natural

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Sciences so I started looking at their

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Anatomy and that is fascinating I mean

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he I believe he dissected over or around

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30 humans but also animals as well right

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yeah the lonardo later in life when he

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was in the French Court he was visited

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by the Cardinal of Aragon's visiting

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party and the sect

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antonio j-bay artists looked at what

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learner had with him including

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anatomical drawings and Leonardo claimed

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to have detected large numbers of bodies

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I think he rolled in that a lot of

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animal dissections so I don't think we

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can literally take it that he detected

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large numbers of human bodies human

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material was very rare difficult to come

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by you had to have special protocols and

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and I don't think he did many full human

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dissections but animals were thought to

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be differently arranged but essentially

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the same and he need to sexy horses and

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and oxen and other animals now he was

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planning to do a treatise on human

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anatomy that he never was never

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completed is that is that right did I

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hear that yes he the earliest signs of

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latter in 1489 he he was in Milan and it

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was in the court of Milan he really had

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time and opportunity to pursue his

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intellectual pursuits and there's that

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that's the first mention of a book on on

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Anatomy as such it's difficult to see by

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the end of his career that he could fit

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everything he'd done into one book he

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said in 1510 I'm hoping to bring to

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conclusion all this Anatomy in scattered

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across all these many these many folios

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these many many books the many codices

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and so on but yeah it became an almost

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impossible task he could have written a

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treatise on the heart alone by the end

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of his life Wow Wow

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now how much of the that part of what he

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was doing had to do with artwork did he

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want to I you know basically understand

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the human body and how how it works as

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far as his his paintings in art work his

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predecessors in Florence

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Antonio polyol over Akio his master

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Michelangelo to a degree they

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concentrated on what lay under the

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surface the fresh that's to say the

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muscles and the bone

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they were interested in the structure

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and the movement where they're rather

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departs is he looks for deeper causes he

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wants to know how does the brain work

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how does the I see how does the

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circulation or not circulation but how

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does the movement of the blood work so

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he saw that not literally serving

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painting in that very obvious way of

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saying I I can portray a figure much

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better if I know where the muscles are

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he said I really need to understand how

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a human being works and I can then make

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remake the human being in my pictures so

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his ambition is related to pictures and

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indeed painting is a supreme expression

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of Leonardo's knowledge of the natural

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world but it's not functional and that

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more obvious sense he's going into very

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deep lying causes as to how a human

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being operates well yeah interesting so

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getting on to our topic today the what

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it was a painting titled Salvatore

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Monday Savior of the world I believe

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that's what it translates to or close to

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it right indeed they laid out it was we

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will see transform something slightly

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different well I want to read quickly

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there an excerpt from an article in the

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New Orleans advocate quote the painting

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was sold again in 1958 then it was

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acquired in 2005 badly damaged and

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partly painted over by a consortium of

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art dealers who paid less than $10,000

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80 for 45 euros at auction at an auction

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house in Louisiana unquote now why is

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most of the press not that it matters

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any but why is most of the press saying

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that this has bought it in a state sale

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and not an auction do you have any idea

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I don't know that my understanding is it

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was when Robert Simon Alexander parish

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in the to the two first dealers who are

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involved with it noticed I think it was

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in a sale in Louisiana yeah in an

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auction

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why

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the thing that the question that came to

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mind just being in the business that I

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am is why this $10,000 it's not really a

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lot to invest so why was there a

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consortium involved to begin with there

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wasn't really a consortium auctioneers

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now as you will know spend a lot of time

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combing catalogs online auction

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catalogues and they do that for the

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smaller auctions and they are layoffs

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and bid without seeing the object if

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it's it's not going to be too expensive

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and they think it's worth of hunters

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they say and they both they know they

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knew each other that they both noticed

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it independently and exchanged views on

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it and although it looked pretty

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terrible it looked like what I described

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as drug-crazed hippies at that point it

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was heavily over-painted it was clearly

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fairly old it was painted on more than

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that panel

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therefore they thought well no though

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there are lots of versions of the summer

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to Monday this is at least an old one

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let's um let's have a go at it if it

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proves not to be very much then in terms

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of the prices of old master paintings

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though they were not go we're not going

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up very high in the scale of things

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could you hold on just a minute my front

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door isn't as can we just break for a

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moment yeah we are live so it's a man

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has got all my dolls front and back

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doors off the hinges at the moment

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fitting all right that's fine all right

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so I'll talk a little bit so this this

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painting you know it's one of these

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things where if you if if you saw this

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in an auction you know I'm sure a lot of

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people are kicking themselves because

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you know the pay day of this thing ended

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up being a world record four hundred

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fifty million dollars which is quite

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amazing and it just kind of the

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questions I'll be asking you know how

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many hands did this actually slip

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through by the time it actually hit the

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auction block on I think it was November

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15th I also want to find

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you know there's a lot of speculation

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about who bought this and just today in

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the New York Times there was an article

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about about trying to find out trying to

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root out who the buyer was of this we'll

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be talking about that and a lot more and

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he's back so Martin so did you have any

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more a continuation of what you were

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talking about or you want to keep moving

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on here yes basically they they bought

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it at that price and it was taken back

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to New York and was put in Robert

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Simon's hands and it was he who then

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instigated the research and the cleaning

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of the picture the restoration of it now

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I have up on the screen right now some

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restoration images and I I guess the

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question I want to ask and I'm sure

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you've answered this a number of times

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but how far into the restoration process

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did did all of a sudden the light come

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on that you know I think we really have

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something here yeah I think it was

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pretty early

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Robert Simon took it to the modest

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tina's and husband and wife and Diane

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who is about 90 that Diane was actively

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involved in conserving and he took it

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across New York in a bin liner believe

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it or not and they did she did a test

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clean just to see what was happening you

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know it's perfectly obvious that it was

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heavily over painted and that the other

272
00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:11,030
thing would come off relatively readily

273
00:13:15,790 --> 00:13:13,310
I think it's pretty soon in that they

274
00:13:17,890 --> 00:13:15,800
thought this is actually interesting

275
00:13:20,590 --> 00:13:17,900
they didn't think ah this is there

276
00:13:23,710 --> 00:13:20,600
another original it took much more than

277
00:13:25,450 --> 00:13:23,720
that but the the initial clean suggested

278
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:25,460
that there was a good and worthwhile

279
00:13:33,070 --> 00:13:28,010
painting underneath the the over think

280
00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:33,080
now with infrared they saw the thumb of

281
00:13:39,730 --> 00:13:35,330
repositioning and that was kind of like

282
00:13:40,630 --> 00:13:39,740
an aha moment right the thumb became

283
00:13:45,220 --> 00:13:40,640
visible

284
00:13:49,750 --> 00:13:45,230
cleaning as as the over paint was

285
00:13:51,910 --> 00:13:49,760
cleaned off that area and paint becomes

286
00:13:54,670 --> 00:13:51,920
more translucent over time and often the

287
00:13:57,519 --> 00:13:54,680
pentimenti the regrets translate the

288
00:13:59,110 --> 00:13:57,529
word the the changes of mine sometimes

289
00:14:01,269 --> 00:13:59,120
become more apparent as they come

290
00:14:04,389 --> 00:14:01,279
through the upper layers and that

291
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:04,399
happened with the that happen with the

292
00:14:09,100 --> 00:14:07,250
thumb and Pentimento a change of mine

293
00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:09,110
doesn't mean to say it has to be the

294
00:14:13,810 --> 00:14:11,690
original but it it helps a good deal as

295
00:14:16,990 --> 00:14:13,820
it says well it's not just a purely

296
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:17,000
mechanical copy back when you and I

297
00:14:23,170 --> 00:14:20,050
spoke about the La Bella principessa I

298
00:14:27,009 --> 00:14:23,180
remembered there was a gentleman named I

299
00:14:30,699 --> 00:14:27,019
believe Pascal and France that did some

300
00:14:34,210 --> 00:14:30,709
imagery that was fascinating I can't

301
00:14:35,949 --> 00:14:34,220
remember what the pixels were but was

302
00:14:39,759 --> 00:14:35,959
any of that done with this with this

303
00:14:42,250 --> 00:14:39,769
picture yeah this has been very it's

304
00:14:45,069 --> 00:14:42,260
been examined by x-rays by infrared

305
00:14:47,980 --> 00:14:45,079
reflectography which is a technique of

306
00:14:51,069 --> 00:14:47,990
bouncing infrared rays off the priming

307
00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:51,079
and you pick up and with any luck you

308
00:14:58,329 --> 00:14:53,920
pick up drawings and changes which are

309
00:14:59,980 --> 00:14:58,339
done in with carbon rich pigments yeah

310
00:15:02,410 --> 00:14:59,990
there's been fully scientifically

311
00:15:04,930 --> 00:15:02,420
examined and yeah there are some

312
00:15:07,329 --> 00:15:04,940
pentimenti some changes of mind around

313
00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:07,339
the top of the garment you can see that

314
00:15:13,180 --> 00:15:10,000
the the knot design has turned from a

315
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:13,190
curvy knot design into a rather angular

316
00:15:19,090 --> 00:15:14,930
not designed like you can see at the

317
00:15:21,460 --> 00:15:19,100
moment you could see particularly in

318
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:21,470
infrared where they're not who had

319
00:15:29,319 --> 00:15:25,370
pressed the heel of his right hand into

320
00:15:31,750 --> 00:15:29,329
the paint to soften the transitions

321
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:31,760
between lash and shades we know he did

322
00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:33,170
that a lot and it's very characteristic

323
00:15:39,790 --> 00:15:36,290
of Leonardo the boys don't seem to have

324
00:15:42,300 --> 00:15:39,800
done that and the technical examination

325
00:15:44,829 --> 00:15:42,310
yet revealed a number of very very

326
00:15:47,699 --> 00:15:44,839
characteristic things they also found

327
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:47,709
the priming was very extraordinary that

328
00:15:55,070 --> 00:15:52,490
they Nardo is he had a gesso priming ie

329
00:15:58,580 --> 00:15:55,080
plaster then he put white they don't

330
00:16:01,460 --> 00:15:58,590
and unusually learn are though sometimes

331
00:16:03,950 --> 00:16:01,470
tinted selected areas or the whole of

332
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:03,960
the areas and depending on what color

333
00:16:09,410 --> 00:16:06,930
was going to go on top and in this case

334
00:16:13,070 --> 00:16:09,420
it seems that he ground some glass up

335
00:16:14,810 --> 00:16:13,080
and put it in these priming layers which

336
00:16:17,450 --> 00:16:14,820
presumably was intended to give a kind

337
00:16:20,470 --> 00:16:17,460
of radiance in the picture so though

338
00:16:22,370 --> 00:16:20,480
that very eccentric technical

339
00:16:25,220 --> 00:16:22,380
experimentation which almost differs

340
00:16:28,270 --> 00:16:25,230
from picture to picture is again very

341
00:16:30,170 --> 00:16:28,280
characteristic of Leonardo and the

342
00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:30,180
followers in studio were more

343
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:32,310
conservative in that respect now I

344
00:16:37,690 --> 00:16:34,050
wonder why he chose a panel that had a

345
00:16:40,190 --> 00:16:37,700
knot in it which later caused the crack

346
00:16:42,950 --> 00:16:40,200
yuckle II around the face it didn't go

347
00:16:45,950 --> 00:16:42,960
through the face it's it's a walnut

348
00:16:49,460 --> 00:16:45,960
panel and he liked wound up panels for a

349
00:16:51,350 --> 00:16:49,470
smaller scale pictures at some see he

350
00:16:55,310 --> 00:16:51,360
felt it was a good surface to paint on

351
00:16:58,430 --> 00:16:55,320
but I think he obviously wouldn't have

352
00:17:01,640 --> 00:16:58,440
been aware that the it was going to walk

353
00:17:03,350 --> 00:17:01,650
in and crack in that way and indeed I

354
00:17:05,540 --> 00:17:03,360
think if it have been kept in better

355
00:17:09,140 --> 00:17:05,550
conditions one imagines that have been

356
00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:09,150
badly affected by an environment with

357
00:17:16,060 --> 00:17:12,510
huge changes of humidity it was

358
00:17:18,260 --> 00:17:16,070
certainly in written for some time and

359
00:17:20,210 --> 00:17:18,270
surviving in the British climate of

360
00:17:24,110 --> 00:17:20,220
humidity changes is rather different

361
00:17:27,740 --> 00:17:24,120
from surviving silly right right now

362
00:17:29,270 --> 00:17:27,750
about the rest cents were we're kind of

363
00:17:32,630 --> 00:17:29,280
talking about the restoration part of

364
00:17:36,110 --> 00:17:32,640
this these talk about only twenty

365
00:17:39,140 --> 00:17:36,120
percent or so of this painting is

366
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:39,150
original and you know the rest is

367
00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:41,570
basically in painting in the restoration

368
00:17:47,510 --> 00:17:44,850
so and I know very very well done but in

369
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:47,520
your opinion at what point does a

370
00:17:52,730 --> 00:17:50,010
masterpiece not become you know

371
00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:52,740
considered the work of an old master

372
00:17:58,340 --> 00:17:56,130
well first of all the 20% is absolutely

373
00:18:03,560 --> 00:17:58,350
a hundred hundred percent misleading

374
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:03,570
okay if you say how much survives of the

375
00:18:08,930 --> 00:18:05,850
lonardo surface in its absolutely

376
00:18:13,820 --> 00:18:08,940
pristine condition then you might

377
00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:13,830
down to that kind of level but if you

378
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:15,600
look at the picture and it was stripped

379
00:18:22,940 --> 00:18:17,970
down and you you're back to original

380
00:18:25,850 --> 00:18:22,950
paint it's it's quite high I wouldn't

381
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:25,860
wish to quantify it very precisely but I

382
00:18:30,650 --> 00:18:28,170
would say about 80% of the panel is

383
00:18:34,130 --> 00:18:30,660
covered in paint that Leonardo put on

384
00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:34,140
some of that is under painting or lower

385
00:18:39,050 --> 00:18:36,480
layers some places and the top layers

386
00:18:41,450 --> 00:18:39,060
hasn't survived so it's quite a car it's

387
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:41,460
quite complicated I have to say if you

388
00:18:46,370 --> 00:18:44,610
saw all the pictures we now delight it

389
00:18:48,530 --> 00:18:46,380
and in galleries whether the

390
00:18:50,570 --> 00:18:48,540
Metropolitan Museum they Louvre or the

391
00:18:52,670 --> 00:18:50,580
National Gallery in London where if you

392
00:18:55,130 --> 00:18:52,680
saw them stripped down that is to say

393
00:18:57,650 --> 00:18:55,140
all the infilling all the restoration

394
00:19:01,280 --> 00:18:57,660
all the conservation work removes we

395
00:19:03,590 --> 00:19:01,290
we'd be quite I'm quite shocked by how

396
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:03,600
damaged a lot of these pictures are you

397
00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:09,570
know the percent is is a nonsense um if

398
00:19:14,060 --> 00:19:11,520
if it was literally 80 percent if you

399
00:19:16,220 --> 00:19:14,070
stripped off all the over painting you

400
00:19:17,450 --> 00:19:16,230
would only have 20 percent of the panel

401
00:19:20,660 --> 00:19:17,460
covered in paints and that's absolutely

402
00:19:22,940 --> 00:19:20,670
not the case I see so that is misleading

403
00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:22,950
in a lot of the articles that you see

404
00:19:25,490 --> 00:19:25,110
out there so I'm glad I'm glad to clear

405
00:19:29,510 --> 00:19:25,500
that up

406
00:19:31,610 --> 00:19:29,520
yeah people cite this it's sloppy and

407
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:31,620
journalists and they were looking for

408
00:19:35,690 --> 00:19:33,810
sensations tend to tend to be rather

409
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:35,700
sloppy and they pick up that figure as

410
00:19:41,330 --> 00:19:37,890
if some if it's got some Authority and I

411
00:19:44,230 --> 00:19:41,340
I don't know where it came from but as

412
00:19:45,980 --> 00:19:44,240
we know fake news gets repeated yeah

413
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:45,990
that's right

414
00:19:52,910 --> 00:19:50,010
so the question I have about this this

415
00:19:55,820 --> 00:19:52,920
thing was lost in time a couple of times

416
00:19:59,240 --> 00:19:55,830
and a couple of different stretches how

417
00:20:01,100 --> 00:19:59,250
does something like that happen well if

418
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:01,110
you look at the line Ardo paintings

419
00:20:05,750 --> 00:20:03,930
there is only one painting which has got

420
00:20:07,310 --> 00:20:05,760
an absolutely continuous provenance

421
00:20:09,710 --> 00:20:07,320
that's to say the history of its

422
00:20:12,890 --> 00:20:09,720
ownership and that's the Last Supper and

423
00:20:14,570 --> 00:20:12,900
that's on a wall so need to get lost

424
00:20:17,420 --> 00:20:14,580
probably unless it was covered up but

425
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:17,430
anyway it's only the Last Supper the

426
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:21,210
Mona Lisa has gaps in its history we

427
00:20:25,820 --> 00:20:22,290
don't know how it

428
00:20:28,820 --> 00:20:25,830
but into trances the first collection it

429
00:20:33,770 --> 00:20:28,830
was in Fontainebleau by 1550 but there

430
00:20:36,220 --> 00:20:33,780
now who died in 1519 so there's a there

431
00:20:39,470 --> 00:20:36,230
are there are gaps in the provenance

432
00:20:41,150 --> 00:20:39,480
yeah and the Cecilia gala Ronnie the

433
00:20:43,940 --> 00:20:41,160
wonderful painting of the lady with the

434
00:20:47,780 --> 00:20:43,950
ermine in crackles that really appeared

435
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:47,790
in the in the 19th century really Wow

436
00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:49,770
the Benoit Madonna and her massage

437
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:53,910
appeared early 20th century so yeah

438
00:20:57,650 --> 00:20:55,770
things things disappear they get

439
00:21:03,470 --> 00:20:57,660
neglected they get over painted or

440
00:21:06,190 --> 00:21:03,480
they're in in obscure collections which

441
00:21:09,170 --> 00:21:06,200
haven't been visited by people who are

442
00:21:12,860 --> 00:21:09,180
recording the works of art or whatever

443
00:21:14,810 --> 00:21:12,870
yeah it's common enough you just

444
00:21:16,850 --> 00:21:14,820
mentioned the painting and I forget what

445
00:21:19,970 --> 00:21:16,860
the animals call it looks like a ferret

446
00:21:23,380 --> 00:21:19,980
what's that it's an element it's her

447
00:21:26,300 --> 00:21:23,390
it's it's a it's an oversized ermine hon

448
00:21:29,060 --> 00:21:26,310
neoman is a symbol of purity and

449
00:21:31,580 --> 00:21:29,070
moderation I think that's actually just

450
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:31,590
that's my favorite painting oh yeah

451
00:21:38,450 --> 00:21:34,890
beautiful yeah yeah it's just wonderful

452
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:38,460
but okay back to this one so this was

453
00:21:45,470 --> 00:21:40,890
lost there is a picture I believe it's

454
00:21:48,350 --> 00:21:45,480
1908 or something like that and that was

455
00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:48,360
the last time it had surfaced

456
00:21:53,350 --> 00:21:50,310
is that correct and then it and it

457
00:21:55,580 --> 00:21:53,360
became lost from there for a while yeah

458
00:21:59,630 --> 00:21:55,590
there's a question of the earlier

459
00:22:02,000 --> 00:21:59,640
provenance and I'm right with Robert

460
00:22:03,830 --> 00:22:02,010
Simon who's a crime discoverer of the

461
00:22:05,330 --> 00:22:03,840
picture and Margaret de laval one of my

462
00:22:09,590 --> 00:22:05,340
former students who are writing a book

463
00:22:13,130 --> 00:22:09,600
on it a margaret de laval has who's got

464
00:22:14,780 --> 00:22:13,140
a loss of the the provenance of it when

465
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:14,790
it was in the collections of Charles the

466
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:17,610
first in the interregnum after Charles

467
00:22:22,430 --> 00:22:20,610
the first have been beheaded in Charles

468
00:22:25,010 --> 00:22:22,440
the second and then Duke of Buckingham

469
00:22:29,660 --> 00:22:25,020
so she's got a bit of the middle of the

470
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:29,670
provenance as it were getting it from in

471
00:22:33,350 --> 00:22:31,410
our doubts at that point there's a gap

472
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:33,360
and then there's a gap when it appears

473
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:36,090
in the in the cook collection and

474
00:22:42,260 --> 00:22:38,970
book was a major English tractor

475
00:22:44,990 --> 00:22:42,270
particularly collected Italian paintings

476
00:22:48,380 --> 00:22:45,000
this was late 19th early 20th century

477
00:22:50,090 --> 00:22:48,390
and it was in his collection and by that

478
00:22:52,370 --> 00:22:50,100
time it was obviously not in good

479
00:22:54,860 --> 00:22:52,380
condition and it was described as baltra

480
00:22:59,000 --> 00:22:54,870
Theo or school of baltra Theo Welsh

481
00:23:00,529 --> 00:22:59,010
raffio was alone our doe pupil and so it

482
00:23:04,460 --> 00:23:00,539
was it was known to be in that

483
00:23:07,669 --> 00:23:04,470
collection and it was sold in the 1940s

484
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:07,679
so one of the last dribs and drabs of

485
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:09,090
things to be sold from the cook

486
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:12,090
collection and wasn't it at a sum or am

487
00:23:18,740 --> 00:23:15,330
i thinking of a later in 1958 something

488
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:18,750
like 45 yeah that's right yeah so for

489
00:23:23,570 --> 00:23:21,570
some pretty derisory some and if you'd

490
00:23:26,029 --> 00:23:23,580
seen if there was a black-and-white

491
00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:26,039
photograph of it when it was in the in

492
00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:28,370
the cook collection and it looked awful

493
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:31,110
yeah there was a beard added to like a

494
00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:33,570
little mustache and right yes well

495
00:23:39,260 --> 00:23:36,480
there's a droopy beard and they the eyes

496
00:23:41,389 --> 00:23:39,270
look completely glazed as if someone has

497
00:23:45,789 --> 00:23:41,399
been sniffing noxious substances you

498
00:23:48,919 --> 00:23:45,799
know all right so this this appears in

499
00:23:51,980 --> 00:23:48,929
2005 it comes up we talked about earlier

500
00:23:57,620 --> 00:23:51,990
at a an auction in Louisiana that comes

501
00:24:00,440 --> 00:23:57,630
up now what what what happens then and

502
00:24:02,539 --> 00:24:00,450
who how many hands does it go through

503
00:24:08,930 --> 00:24:02,549
before it actually hits the auction

504
00:24:11,269 --> 00:24:08,940
block well the two dealers have invested

505
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:11,279
in it not huge sums of money but they

506
00:24:14,899 --> 00:24:12,330
were invested in it

507
00:24:19,149 --> 00:24:14,909
Robert is directing the cleaning of it

508
00:24:22,580 --> 00:24:19,159
and at a certain point they think well

509
00:24:24,380 --> 00:24:22,590
you know this is actually the real thing

510
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:24,390
they got the Pentimento they got

511
00:24:29,180 --> 00:24:26,730
scientific examination they've they've

512
00:24:31,159 --> 00:24:29,190
seen this absolutely wonderful handling

513
00:24:32,779 --> 00:24:31,169
the best preserved bits of the picture

514
00:24:36,049 --> 00:24:32,789
are just spectacular

515
00:24:40,250 --> 00:24:36,059
they really kind of physic vitality and

516
00:24:47,450 --> 00:24:40,260
with Leonardo's very remarkable and way

517
00:24:49,940 --> 00:24:47,460
of conjuring up light on form and and it

518
00:24:52,370 --> 00:24:49,950
then becomes caught up in the

519
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:52,380
what to do with it they need to get it

520
00:24:56,269 --> 00:24:54,090
out into the public domain and the

521
00:24:58,340 --> 00:24:56,279
National Gallery in London is devising

522
00:25:02,240 --> 00:24:58,350
it show of lair now do at the court of

523
00:25:04,149 --> 00:25:02,250
Milan and they obviously put it in the

524
00:25:06,980 --> 00:25:04,159
direction of the National Gallery and

525
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:06,990
Luke's Ison the curator is working on

526
00:25:10,820 --> 00:25:08,730
the show and Nick penny who's the

527
00:25:12,769 --> 00:25:10,830
director of the National Gallery and an

528
00:25:17,389 --> 00:25:12,779
expert on Italian art amongst other

529
00:25:19,610 --> 00:25:17,399
things it was taken across to them and I

530
00:25:22,310 --> 00:25:19,620
received an email from Nick Penney

531
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:22,320
saying we've got something in the

532
00:25:27,350 --> 00:25:23,730
gallery which I think you might like to

533
00:25:31,100 --> 00:25:27,360
see and I went up to the gallery in

534
00:25:33,379 --> 00:25:31,110
London Pietro Mirani the great Leonardo

535
00:25:35,889 --> 00:25:33,389
scholar for Milan was there Maria Teresa

536
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:35,899
Fiore oh the sovereign ten dente

537
00:25:44,379 --> 00:25:38,690
superintendent of Milanese paintings was

538
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:44,389
was there and common ban back from the

539
00:25:50,779 --> 00:25:47,490
great joy joy expert on Leonardo

540
00:25:53,870 --> 00:25:50,789
drawings was there from the Metropolitan

541
00:25:56,419 --> 00:25:53,880
and we saw it in the conservation

542
00:25:59,450 --> 00:25:56,429
studios beside the virgin of the rocks--

543
00:26:03,590 --> 00:25:59,460
which was being considered for cleaning

544
00:26:05,509 --> 00:26:03,600
in in advance of the show and at that

545
00:26:08,389 --> 00:26:05,519
point had it been restored to the

546
00:26:10,940 --> 00:26:08,399
condition it is now there was still a

547
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:10,950
bit of work on the background and and

548
00:26:16,220 --> 00:26:14,610
the the the the the second thumb as it

549
00:26:18,710 --> 00:26:16,230
were the change of position of a thumb

550
00:26:21,289 --> 00:26:18,720
hadn't at that point as I recall beam

551
00:26:25,399 --> 00:26:21,299
painted over but yeah it was

552
00:26:28,539 --> 00:26:25,409
substantially like it is now and so how

553
00:26:35,539 --> 00:26:32,659
Leonardo's have a presence and you will

554
00:26:37,970 --> 00:26:35,549
know any you've seen and you talked

555
00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:37,980
about the Julia gallery lady the crack

556
00:26:43,220 --> 00:26:39,510
off in ermine they have an extraordinary

557
00:26:45,350 --> 00:26:43,230
kind of living presence some artists can

558
00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:45,360
do that Rembrandt does that with

559
00:26:49,669 --> 00:26:47,370
self-portraits Michelangelo can do it

560
00:26:52,009 --> 00:26:49,679
the marble they have that kind of living

561
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:52,019
presence as if they're not just made out

562
00:26:57,799 --> 00:26:54,450
of pigment or stone in the case of

563
00:27:00,350 --> 00:26:57,809
Michelangelo sculpture it's and it was

564
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:00,360
immediately apparent that it was a

565
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:03,690
strange picture it has this uncanny

566
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:05,730
see to it which particularly the later

567
00:27:10,820 --> 00:27:08,850
Leonardo's tend to have but I mean

568
00:27:14,259 --> 00:27:10,830
that's not enough to search by Leonardo

569
00:27:18,049 --> 00:27:14,269
but it's a it's a good starting point so

570
00:27:23,389 --> 00:27:18,059
yeah you tend to I thought what do I do

571
00:27:25,549 --> 00:27:23,399
i played it rather cool and said hello

572
00:27:29,450 --> 00:27:25,559
to the other people and and then looked

573
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:29,460
at it carefully and one of the things I

574
00:27:36,999 --> 00:27:32,090
observe straight away is that the sphere

575
00:27:43,039 --> 00:27:39,470
you think well that's a glass sphere but

576
00:27:45,289 --> 00:27:43,049
it's not glass and typical Salvator

577
00:27:47,330 --> 00:27:45,299
Mundi have brass spheres that they're

578
00:27:48,919 --> 00:27:47,340
holding sometimes they do glass

579
00:27:51,889 --> 00:27:48,929
particularly in Venice which was a major

580
00:27:55,629 --> 00:27:51,899
center for glass but this is not a glass

581
00:27:59,960 --> 00:27:55,639
sphere I could see that it was full of

582
00:28:02,600 --> 00:27:59,970
little gaps or not a Yaqui bubbles in

583
00:28:05,019 --> 00:28:02,610
the case of MI having glass but there

584
00:28:07,730 --> 00:28:05,029
are little internal marks in the sphere

585
00:28:08,450 --> 00:28:07,740
and I remembered as nuff of my Cambridge

586
00:28:12,769 --> 00:28:08,460
geology

587
00:28:15,769 --> 00:28:12,779
I think that's rock crystal and rock

588
00:28:17,930 --> 00:28:15,779
crystal sphere with what are technically

589
00:28:19,940 --> 00:28:17,940
called inclusions these little faults

590
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:19,950
sometimes they have cleavage planes this

591
00:28:28,669 --> 00:28:23,970
one didn't have cleavage planes but as I

592
00:28:30,259 --> 00:28:28,679
said that's rock crystal without without

593
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:30,269
very much evidence for it but it's just

594
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:32,850
an instinctive reaction and that becomes

595
00:28:39,019 --> 00:28:35,850
interesting then because why just learn

596
00:28:40,279 --> 00:28:39,029
how to use rock crystal and he was

597
00:28:42,710 --> 00:28:40,289
considered an expert in these

598
00:28:46,820 --> 00:28:42,720
semi-precious materials but why did he

599
00:28:49,129 --> 00:28:46,830
use it in the painting and it's clear

600
00:28:52,580 --> 00:28:49,139
that he's altering the iconography the

601
00:28:55,100 --> 00:28:52,590
subject matter of the picture that the

602
00:28:57,919 --> 00:28:55,110
crystalline sphere has known at the time

603
00:29:03,100 --> 00:28:57,929
was with the sphere of the fixed stars

604
00:29:06,230 --> 00:29:03,110
so the fixed stars the constellations

605
00:29:09,919 --> 00:29:06,240
like Bao and Big Dipper or whatever and

606
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:09,929
which go round and seem to circulate in

607
00:29:17,020 --> 00:29:13,440
a you know sort of orbit you know in a

608
00:29:21,190 --> 00:29:19,020
that was in the relations called

609
00:29:24,370 --> 00:29:21,200
following Ptolemy in classical antiquity

610
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:24,380
was called the crystalline sphere of the

611
00:29:29,530 --> 00:29:27,530
fixed stars so what he's doing is saying

612
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:29,540
the Christ isn't just savior of the

613
00:29:35,070 --> 00:29:31,490
earth he is Savior of the cosmos and

614
00:29:37,930 --> 00:29:35,080
Savior of the whole planetary

615
00:29:39,370 --> 00:29:37,940
cosmological system I was wondering what

616
00:29:42,310 --> 00:29:39,380
that represented I was gonna ask you

617
00:29:44,790 --> 00:29:42,320
that now how come you know I mean the

618
00:29:47,170 --> 00:29:44,800
the little bubbles or inclusions are

619
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:47,180
really something when you look at it

620
00:29:52,570 --> 00:29:50,090
closely but how comes the robe is not

621
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:52,580
distorted with the light refraction like

622
00:29:56,500 --> 00:29:54,110
it should be do you think that was

623
00:30:01,060 --> 00:29:56,510
purposeful yeah I said it's absolutely

624
00:30:03,190 --> 00:30:01,070
deliberate the what would happen with

625
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:03,200
the sphere there is according to how far

626
00:30:08,700 --> 00:30:05,570
you read it away from the draperies but

627
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:08,710
if it's being held by his arm some way

628
00:30:16,330 --> 00:30:12,770
some way out from the from the draperies

629
00:30:18,430 --> 00:30:16,340
themselves what would happen there you'd

630
00:30:21,220 --> 00:30:18,440
really do careful experiment that you

631
00:30:24,550 --> 00:30:21,230
get a lot of very you get inversion and

632
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:24,560
a lot of three strong curvilinear

633
00:30:27,370 --> 00:30:25,730
Distortion

634
00:30:30,460 --> 00:30:27,380
now then out is not going to do that

635
00:30:32,740 --> 00:30:30,470
it's going to dominate the whole picture

636
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:32,750
and make it look very peculiar yeah we

637
00:30:37,990 --> 00:30:34,970
draw your eye to it wouldn't it yeah he

638
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:38,000
wouldn't for instance in the baptism of

639
00:30:43,510 --> 00:30:40,370
Christ show Christ's legs as refracted

640
00:30:44,830 --> 00:30:43,520
in water and no artist would do that and

641
00:30:48,010 --> 00:30:44,840
there were lots of effects visual

642
00:30:50,650 --> 00:30:48,020
effects that there now who said were for

643
00:30:52,390 --> 00:30:50,660
the specular Tory for the Philosopher's

644
00:30:54,610 --> 00:30:52,400
for the people who think about natural

645
00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:54,620
things he knew that if something moved

646
00:31:02,500 --> 00:30:58,010
fast it was blurred but he wouldn't a

647
00:31:06,130 --> 00:31:02,510
blur in a picture yes so there were

648
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:06,140
visual effects which would be violate

649
00:31:10,830 --> 00:31:08,330
decorum that's to say the good manners

650
00:31:13,150 --> 00:31:10,840
which you would expect to observe

651
00:31:18,550 --> 00:31:13,160
particularly in a devotional subject of

652
00:31:20,470 --> 00:31:18,560
this sort so yeah he if people assume

653
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:20,480
that he's going to follow the optical

654
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:22,970
truth of the picture down to the very

655
00:31:27,550 --> 00:31:24,890
end this is not what he does he's making

656
00:31:30,649 --> 00:31:27,560
functional pictures I see now let's talk

657
00:31:31,669 --> 00:31:30,659
about the emotional part of this

658
00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:31,679
because I think that's really

659
00:31:36,589 --> 00:31:34,529
interesting there's a video that shows

660
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:36,599
you know people looking at it for the

661
00:31:42,409 --> 00:31:39,690
first time did you feel as though this

662
00:31:45,710 --> 00:31:42,419
painting also had an emotional quality

663
00:31:49,749 --> 00:31:45,720
when you saw it in person it has this

664
00:31:52,580 --> 00:31:49,759
quality in a way the Mona Lisa has that

665
00:31:54,799 --> 00:31:52,590
there is an emotion there there's a

666
00:31:58,700 --> 00:31:54,809
sense that the figure is looking at you

667
00:32:01,849 --> 00:31:58,710
and reacting and you're reacting but

668
00:32:05,899 --> 00:32:01,859
it's it's not clearly defined it's a

669
00:32:11,529 --> 00:32:05,909
it's a very elusive emotion it's not

670
00:32:14,629 --> 00:32:11,539
simply something that is saying I am

671
00:32:18,799 --> 00:32:14,639
asserting my sovereignty over you or I'm

672
00:32:20,930 --> 00:32:18,809
inviting you or I'm smiling at you in an

673
00:32:24,529 --> 00:32:20,940
accessible way it's got that mysterious

674
00:32:28,279 --> 00:32:24,539
quality it's it's about the ineffable

675
00:32:30,529 --> 00:32:28,289
about something which is there in our

676
00:32:33,409 --> 00:32:30,539
space but can't be fully understood and

677
00:32:35,479 --> 00:32:33,419
Christ after all comes from heaven so

678
00:32:37,999 --> 00:32:35,489
although he's incarnate he's turned into

679
00:32:41,779 --> 00:32:38,009
flesh and blood like you and me he

680
00:32:46,580 --> 00:32:41,789
remains this ultimate spiritual figure

681
00:32:48,950 --> 00:32:46,590
and ultimately not Noble in a very

682
00:32:52,999 --> 00:32:48,960
literal sense by our limited human mind

683
00:32:56,779 --> 00:32:53,009
so it's an exercise in Indian ethical in

684
00:32:59,719 --> 00:32:56,789
the in the spiritual mean accessible as

685
00:33:01,820 --> 00:32:59,729
well as something we can see yeah yeah

686
00:33:04,249 --> 00:33:01,830
and really interesting you know I think

687
00:33:07,669 --> 00:33:04,259
we skipped around I want to walk it back

688
00:33:11,149 --> 00:33:07,679
just a little bit too I asked you about

689
00:33:13,310 --> 00:33:11,159
how you know the hands changed I don't

690
00:33:17,690 --> 00:33:13,320
think we quite finished that part of it

691
00:33:20,659 --> 00:33:17,700
when it when it went to auction how many

692
00:33:23,450 --> 00:33:20,669
different ownerships had it had before I

693
00:33:26,180 --> 00:33:23,460
mean since 2005 when it was first does

694
00:33:27,019 --> 00:33:26,190
rediscovered we which auction do you

695
00:33:29,089 --> 00:33:27,029
mean sorry

696
00:33:32,899 --> 00:33:29,099
the auction Louisiana it was it was

697
00:33:34,849 --> 00:33:32,909
found in yeah in in 2005 but I just

698
00:33:37,549 --> 00:33:34,859
wanted to know until it went to auction

699
00:33:40,879 --> 00:33:37,559
and brought the record price you know

700
00:33:43,310 --> 00:33:40,889
the ownership how many times how many

701
00:33:44,150 --> 00:33:43,320
times had to change hands well this is a

702
00:33:47,030 --> 00:33:44,160
gap

703
00:33:52,250 --> 00:33:47,040
it being in Leonardo's possession in the

704
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:52,260
possession of his pupil cell I and we

705
00:33:57,950 --> 00:33:54,930
don't then know certainly what happened

706
00:34:01,370 --> 00:33:57,960
to it who owned it before it ended up in

707
00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:01,380
the collection of Charles the first in

708
00:34:08,180 --> 00:34:07,110
the 1630s say so there's that big gap we

709
00:34:10,850 --> 00:34:08,190
don't know how many hands it passed

710
00:34:14,240 --> 00:34:10,860
through I'm sorry I'm sorry for the

711
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:14,250
confusion no I meant in 2005 who was

712
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:18,330
bought by some dealers and today they

713
00:34:22,070 --> 00:34:20,310
sold it it sold like two other times

714
00:34:25,879 --> 00:34:22,080
before it went to auction is that right

715
00:34:27,740 --> 00:34:25,889
no it's not known it was in the in the

716
00:34:29,770 --> 00:34:27,750
sale of the Cooke collection it was

717
00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:29,780
knocked down to somebody called

718
00:34:38,810 --> 00:34:33,510
which made simply the sort of made up

719
00:34:41,540 --> 00:34:38,820
name for the sake of and then appears in

720
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:41,550
Louisiana and we don't know what there

721
00:34:45,350 --> 00:34:43,530
are designer as far as I know there are

722
00:34:48,050 --> 00:34:45,360
no intermediate stages that we know

723
00:34:49,550 --> 00:34:48,060
about it could have been in in the same

724
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:49,560
collection the whole time it could have

725
00:34:52,720 --> 00:34:51,810
changed hands once twice three times for

726
00:34:57,230 --> 00:34:52,730
all I know

727
00:34:58,100 --> 00:34:57,240
okay now there is always when it comes

728
00:35:00,680 --> 00:34:58,110
to da Vinci

729
00:35:03,110 --> 00:35:00,690
there's always conspiracies you know Dan

730
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:03,120
Brown I think may have helped that along

731
00:35:09,230 --> 00:35:06,530
in his books what have you heard about

732
00:35:14,090 --> 00:35:09,240
conspiracies I'm sure you're you've been

733
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:14,100
contacted about yeah less than with some

734
00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:16,530
pictures own the Mona Lisa is a field

735
00:35:22,940 --> 00:35:19,200
day for the for the brown type people I

736
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:22,950
get sent things about potion script and

737
00:35:27,770 --> 00:35:24,810
in the Mona Lisa talking about

738
00:35:29,690 --> 00:35:27,780
Nostradamus prophecies etc etc and there

739
00:35:32,330 --> 00:35:29,700
are there are lions and there are

740
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:32,340
monkeys and alligators and the landscape

741
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:36,090
etc etc and there's less of that but

742
00:35:42,290 --> 00:35:39,930
I've been sent things about using

743
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:42,300
mirroring techniques to compare the

744
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:44,370
sides of the face and to come up with

745
00:35:49,550 --> 00:35:46,370
elaborate conclusions about

746
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:49,560
psychological mysteries or statements

747
00:35:55,450 --> 00:35:51,330
about the duality of the human condition

748
00:35:57,770 --> 00:35:55,460
and so on that so far

749
00:36:00,470 --> 00:35:57,780
what up so far I've had

750
00:36:04,130 --> 00:36:00,480
relatively fewer of conspiracy theories

751
00:36:06,710 --> 00:36:04,140
and then I might expect but no doubt it

752
00:36:09,110 --> 00:36:06,720
takes some time for the two the secrets

753
00:36:11,090 --> 00:36:09,120
and inverted commas to emerge yeah I

754
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:11,100
figured someone who would read something

755
00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:12,810
in the embroidery work or something like

756
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:16,560
that I haven't done so so sorry yep the

757
00:36:23,090 --> 00:36:19,770
the the knot pattern is interesting it's

758
00:36:26,030 --> 00:36:23,100
almost certainly post Venice because in

759
00:36:29,170 --> 00:36:26,040
an earlier learn how to putt patterns he

760
00:36:32,900 --> 00:36:29,180
was interested in these curving shapes

761
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:32,910
and in Venice he saw Islamic patterns he

762
00:36:40,850 --> 00:36:36,090
was in Venice briefly in 1500 after

763
00:36:43,370 --> 00:36:40,860
Milan and the the pattern on this on

764
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:43,380
these stalls on the bands across his

765
00:36:52,460 --> 00:36:46,050
chest these are essentially Islamic

766
00:36:55,910 --> 00:36:52,470
rectilinear patterns so the picture it's

767
00:36:57,860 --> 00:36:55,920
being painted after 1500 all right so

768
00:36:59,510 --> 00:36:57,870
we're gonna be talking in a little bit

769
00:37:03,200 --> 00:36:59,520
about the auction you know what happened

770
00:37:05,750 --> 00:37:03,210
at auction about the rumored buyer where

771
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:05,760
it may end up all that but before that

772
00:37:11,660 --> 00:37:08,610
let's talk about the authentication of

773
00:37:15,020 --> 00:37:11,670
this painting and I know there's an art

774
00:37:19,220 --> 00:37:15,030
critic named Jerry Saltz he has a lot to

775
00:37:21,490 --> 00:37:19,230
say our was this a difficult piece as

776
00:37:24,980 --> 00:37:21,500
it's still ongoing as far as the

777
00:37:27,710 --> 00:37:24,990
authenticity of this and does the huge

778
00:37:30,410 --> 00:37:27,720
price tag play into what's happening as

779
00:37:32,390 --> 00:37:30,420
far as that discussion goes yeah what

780
00:37:35,180 --> 00:37:32,400
happened was that it was handled

781
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:35,190
initially very sensibly it was shown to

782
00:37:41,060 --> 00:37:37,970
a number of Leonardo specialists and

783
00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:41,070
privately to give them a chance to

784
00:37:47,590 --> 00:37:44,730
examine this and so on and the majority

785
00:37:50,210 --> 00:37:47,600
of Leonardo specialists accepted it

786
00:37:52,340 --> 00:37:50,220
Frank Zollner didn't but he was in

787
00:37:55,910 --> 00:37:52,350
Germany and hadn't seen you original but

788
00:37:58,910 --> 00:37:55,920
now he has and the the objections have

789
00:38:00,830 --> 00:37:58,920
come from people who don't understand

790
00:38:03,310 --> 00:38:00,840
Leonardo don't understand Renaissance

791
00:38:07,430 --> 00:38:03,320
painting don't understand the rules that

792
00:38:10,940 --> 00:38:07,440
pertain and got column issues by

793
00:38:11,690 --> 00:38:10,950
rubbishing something which is which went

794
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:11,700
for the wine room

795
00:38:16,370 --> 00:38:13,290
a few million pounds so there's a very

796
00:38:18,890 --> 00:38:16,380
strange dynamic at it absolutely wasn't

797
00:38:21,950 --> 00:38:18,900
heavily questioned by Leonardo experts

798
00:38:25,069 --> 00:38:21,960
apart from Carla Peretti who has never

799
00:38:29,599 --> 00:38:25,079
seen it and seems not to be aware of it

800
00:38:32,300 --> 00:38:29,609
in its post restoration form but no

801
00:38:34,970 --> 00:38:32,310
there are a number a number of critics

802
00:38:35,660 --> 00:38:34,980
got good column inches by saying very

803
00:38:39,940 --> 00:38:35,670
silly things

804
00:38:42,710 --> 00:38:39,950
now this there's so many similar copies

805
00:38:45,700 --> 00:38:42,720
made of this piece at one time there was

806
00:38:51,829 --> 00:38:45,710
a an example that was thought to be by

807
00:38:54,530 --> 00:38:51,839
Leonardo and the question I have for you

808
00:38:57,650 --> 00:38:54,540
was this like the school of Leonardo I

809
00:38:59,870 --> 00:38:57,660
mean who who are copying these pieces to

810
00:39:01,880 --> 00:38:59,880
begin with laid out who is massively

811
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:01,890
carpet even the Mona Lisa which is a

812
00:39:06,980 --> 00:39:04,170
portrait of a private person was copied

813
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:06,990
a lot relatively early the devotional

814
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:09,450
pictures were copied both in the studio

815
00:39:14,930 --> 00:39:12,530
the studio boys used the resource

816
00:39:18,380 --> 00:39:14,940
resources in the studio for producing

817
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:18,390
additional Madonna's and so on and lo

818
00:39:22,309 --> 00:39:20,490
now there was a brand in Milan he was

819
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:22,319
very much copied to the people who

820
00:39:28,220 --> 00:39:24,810
turned out their Nardo like paintings

821
00:39:30,500 --> 00:39:28,230
and I think the Robert Simon has been

822
00:39:33,650 --> 00:39:30,510
sort of blogging at these and at one

823
00:39:36,260 --> 00:39:33,660
point he was over forty coppers and the

824
00:39:38,900 --> 00:39:36,270
one which was probably the most striking

825
00:39:41,270 --> 00:39:38,910
was in formerly in the gigantic

826
00:39:44,690 --> 00:39:41,280
collection and owned by the contest of

827
00:39:48,829 --> 00:39:44,700
the hog before that rather a strapping a

828
00:39:50,839 --> 00:39:48,839
striking picture which an American

829
00:39:53,059 --> 00:39:50,849
scholar claimed was the original for a

830
00:39:54,859 --> 00:39:53,069
whole series of reasons it's it's not

831
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:54,869
the original the technical examination

832
00:40:00,740 --> 00:39:57,770
reveals Lanza drawing not like Leonardo

833
00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:00,750
the anatomical feeling of the hand isn't

834
00:40:07,250 --> 00:40:03,510
very good etc etc but that was the

835
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:07,260
highest quality one it never got the

836
00:40:12,829 --> 00:40:10,410
acceptance amongst Leonardo scholars or

837
00:40:15,950 --> 00:40:12,839
more generally in the in the world of

838
00:40:18,319 --> 00:40:15,960
art history so that there was one prime

839
00:40:22,220 --> 00:40:18,329
version but it didn't shade up as the

840
00:40:24,500 --> 00:40:22,230
original I see now what about Leonardo's

841
00:40:25,940 --> 00:40:24,510
religious views and how does this

842
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:25,950
painting of

843
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:28,650
Christ fit in with that yeah

844
00:40:32,210 --> 00:40:30,570
can I interrupt just again the man doing

845
00:40:34,670 --> 00:40:32,220
my door is about to go and I need to

846
00:40:38,690 --> 00:40:34,680
bathe it sorry that's okay

847
00:40:44,270 --> 00:40:38,700
all right so again this is live so we

848
00:40:45,380 --> 00:40:44,280
have to move on here and the one of the

849
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:45,390
questions I was thinking about asking

850
00:40:55,340 --> 00:40:50,010
him is mmm the fresco of the Last Supper

851
00:40:59,180 --> 00:40:55,350
I can recall it seemed like only 20 or

852
00:41:02,900 --> 00:40:59,190
25 years ago when they were restoring

853
00:41:07,250 --> 00:41:02,910
that and it was a major restoration and

854
00:41:10,190 --> 00:41:07,260
now I see I see recent images of it and

855
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:10,200
it looks like it is in total disrepair

856
00:41:15,050 --> 00:41:12,570
like it needs restoration again so

857
00:41:19,900 --> 00:41:15,060
that's a question I had wondering how

858
00:41:24,580 --> 00:41:19,910
this happened also another thing is in

859
00:41:27,230 --> 00:41:24,590
the Florence Town Hall there was a

860
00:41:30,140 --> 00:41:27,240
there's a question whether there is a

861
00:41:31,490 --> 00:41:30,150
hidden Leonardo behind one of the walls

862
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:31,500
that were constructed oh you're back

863
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:35,850
already yeah yeah no they've been had my

864
00:41:40,820 --> 00:41:38,370
doors back and front off the hinges to

865
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:40,830
fit draught excluders much needed in

866
00:41:45,260 --> 00:41:42,810
this weather and being an old house it's

867
00:41:48,860 --> 00:41:45,270
taken twice as long as expected and

868
00:41:51,740 --> 00:41:48,870
you're right you're are you you're in

869
00:41:55,250 --> 00:41:51,750
England where are you in England I'm in

870
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:55,260
Woodstock which is ten miles northwest

871
00:41:58,490 --> 00:41:57,090
of Oxford and on the edge of Blenheim

872
00:42:03,770 --> 00:41:58,500
Park Blenheim Palace

873
00:42:07,550 --> 00:42:03,780
ah I see okay so where we were on we're

874
00:42:10,310 --> 00:42:07,560
talking about religious beliefs and how

875
00:42:13,550 --> 00:42:10,320
that fit in with the narrative of this

876
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:13,560
painting you know the first thing to say

877
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:15,810
is that the idea that they're in our

878
00:42:21,290 --> 00:42:18,570
dough is some kind of heretic and he

879
00:42:22,820 --> 00:42:21,300
espouses that some Johnny's more

880
00:42:24,500 --> 00:42:22,830
important than Christ there was

881
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:24,510
absolutely no evidence of that at all

882
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:27,210
and all this sort of Dan Brown stuff

883
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:28,770
which had become very popular was

884
00:42:37,370 --> 00:42:33,690
Leonardo as a as a heretic as some not

885
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:37,380
believing in in Christ etc there is no

886
00:42:41,510 --> 00:42:38,970
evidence for that within

887
00:42:45,740 --> 00:42:41,520
Nardo's work at all it's a fantasy

888
00:42:48,970 --> 00:42:45,750
imposed from outside they now do

889
00:42:52,340 --> 00:42:48,980
basically believed there was a god

890
00:42:55,910 --> 00:42:52,350
nature told him that that the perfection

891
00:42:58,010 --> 00:42:55,920
of natural forms the perfection with

892
00:43:01,850 --> 00:42:58,020
which forms are made in relation to the

893
00:43:04,310 --> 00:43:01,860
natural laws declared that the must be o

894
00:43:06,260 --> 00:43:04,320
maker somebody had made the clockwork as

895
00:43:08,450 --> 00:43:06,270
it were and wound up the heavens and

896
00:43:13,100 --> 00:43:08,460
designed the whole the whole machinery

897
00:43:16,340 --> 00:43:13,110
of of the heavens and the whole business

898
00:43:18,530 --> 00:43:16,350
of how nature performs with its manifest

899
00:43:22,700 --> 00:43:18,540
perfection as Leonardo saw it so there

900
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:22,710
is this figure what he doesn't do when

901
00:43:27,260 --> 00:43:23,930
this is a perfectly respectable

902
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:27,270
philosophical stance is to say I can

903
00:43:33,830 --> 00:43:30,210
study and define this figure he says I

904
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:33,840
can see God work in the earth

905
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:37,650
I can see God's presence but I cannot

906
00:43:46,130 --> 00:43:40,530
even begin to understand the nature of

907
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:46,140
this sublime ineffable infinite being in

908
00:43:52,250 --> 00:43:49,170
Christ as his son partake partake in

909
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:52,260
that even though he was incarnate he was

910
00:43:57,650 --> 00:43:55,770
embodied in flesh it's a it's a doctrine

911
00:44:01,400 --> 00:43:57,660
of double truth you say well there's a

912
00:44:03,620 --> 00:44:01,410
truth that we can encompass in our human

913
00:44:06,950 --> 00:44:03,630
minds what we can see in nature how we

914
00:44:08,930 --> 00:44:06,960
can observe God's handiwork but there's

915
00:44:11,510 --> 00:44:08,940
a second truth which is the truth of

916
00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:11,520
Revelation the truth of the holy books

917
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:14,880
he says at one point leave let be the

918
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:17,010
holy books because they are the supreme

919
00:44:21,770 --> 00:44:19,650
truth so he's not gonna spend a lot of

920
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:21,780
time discussing who is God and what is

921
00:44:27,860 --> 00:44:25,050
nature of God he says that is futile all

922
00:44:30,260 --> 00:44:27,870
we can do is to understand God in terms

923
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:30,270
of our life on earth and what we can see

924
00:44:38,810 --> 00:44:34,410
around us I see well I know he was an

925
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:38,820
illegitimate child and there's a little

926
00:44:43,580 --> 00:44:40,650
known about the relationship with his

927
00:44:46,340 --> 00:44:43,590
father but I just wonder do you happen

928
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:46,350
to know did he have some type of

929
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:48,690
relationship with his father and if so

930
00:44:55,700 --> 00:44:52,410
was it after he became a noted artist

931
00:44:58,100 --> 00:44:55,710
before no we know much more about this

932
00:45:00,650 --> 00:44:58,110
in the book which I wrote with Giuseppe

933
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:00,660
pal ante who's a specialist and Shannon

934
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:04,130
archival work we found out a good deal

935
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:07,050
extra about Leonardo including that his

936
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:09,570
mother almost certainly was a 15 year

937
00:45:16,820 --> 00:45:12,690
old orphan peasant girl known after his

938
00:45:20,780 --> 00:45:16,830
father the family the da vinci family

939
00:45:22,670 --> 00:45:20,790
they were landowners and notaries learn

940
00:45:25,130 --> 00:45:22,680
how those grandfather who brought him

941
00:45:27,740 --> 00:45:25,140
out stayed in Vinci didn't work as a

942
00:45:28,940 --> 00:45:27,750
notary he he he looked after the

943
00:45:32,060 --> 00:45:28,950
properties and so on

944
00:45:33,410 --> 00:45:32,070
no Nardo's father a young man made his

945
00:45:36,290 --> 00:45:33,420
way in Florence and became a very

946
00:45:38,870 --> 00:45:36,300
important lawyer and while he was back

947
00:45:41,140 --> 00:45:38,880
on a summer's afternoon fathered this

948
00:45:43,010 --> 00:45:41,150
child with this very vulnerable

949
00:45:46,670 --> 00:45:43,020
fifteen-year-old peasant girl coup

950
00:45:48,500 --> 00:45:46,680
Caterina no no no he's brought up in the

951
00:45:51,530 --> 00:45:48,510
grandfather's house he's listed in the

952
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:51,540
tax returns and at some point we don't

953
00:45:55,220 --> 00:45:53,490
know when he went to Florence to be

954
00:45:59,840 --> 00:45:55,230
apprenticed to be an artist he'd

955
00:46:03,290 --> 00:45:59,850
obviously shown talent with Andrea ver

956
00:46:07,190 --> 00:46:03,300
Akio the painter sculptor master of all

957
00:46:09,470 --> 00:46:07,200
visual trades and the relationship of

958
00:46:11,540 --> 00:46:09,480
the father seems to have been basically

959
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:11,550
fine he was brought up as a cherished

960
00:46:18,700 --> 00:46:14,730
child new father married and produced

961
00:46:21,020 --> 00:46:18,710
dank something like 17 children and

962
00:46:24,590 --> 00:46:21,030
Leonardo in Florence is always called

963
00:46:27,500 --> 00:46:24,600
lair now do de ser Piero da Vinci serve

964
00:46:31,910 --> 00:46:27,510
is the prefix for a lawyer so learn I'll

965
00:46:35,990 --> 00:46:31,920
do the son of of Pierrot da Vinci the

966
00:46:38,300 --> 00:46:36,000
lawyer so and two of the early

967
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:38,310
commissions the one for the altarpiece

968
00:46:42,830 --> 00:46:40,770
in the Town Hall which Lerner doesn't

969
00:46:45,230 --> 00:46:42,840
seem too damn much work on and the

970
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:45,240
adoration of the Magi for the monastery

971
00:46:50,630 --> 00:46:48,090
of San Donato us got a tow and we can

972
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:50,640
lead read Leonardo's father and this was

973
00:46:55,070 --> 00:46:53,490
Leonardo was the one of the legal

974
00:46:58,400 --> 00:46:55,080
officers involved in both those

975
00:47:00,640 --> 00:46:58,410
organizations I see now let's talk about

976
00:47:03,260 --> 00:47:00,650
the auction

977
00:47:05,380 --> 00:47:03,270
when did you first find out that this

978
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:05,390
thing was going to auction

979
00:47:11,769 --> 00:47:07,729
and what type of hype was there you know

980
00:47:13,839 --> 00:47:11,779
prior to you know this coming up well a

981
00:47:19,180 --> 00:47:13,849
surprised it went to auction first of

982
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:19,190
all Dmitriy rebel off left was building

983
00:47:25,509 --> 00:47:21,650
out this major collection of pictures

984
00:47:28,199 --> 00:47:25,519
and I'd been in contact because we were

985
00:47:33,359 --> 00:47:28,209
writing this book on it so obviously we

986
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:33,369
we look to his cooperation and so on and

987
00:47:39,370 --> 00:47:36,410
it was a picture he much admired and the

988
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:39,380
one that he was reputed as saying he

989
00:47:44,229 --> 00:47:41,690
would sell that last rather than the the

990
00:47:47,890 --> 00:47:44,239
other pictures that Christie's managed

991
00:47:49,779 --> 00:47:47,900
to persuade him that it it should be

992
00:47:52,390 --> 00:47:49,789
sold along with other of the pictures

993
00:47:57,609 --> 00:47:52,400
he'd been buying from Heath Cuvier at

994
00:48:00,130 --> 00:47:57,619
these very high prices and and yeah I

995
00:48:02,529 --> 00:48:00,140
was contacted by Christie's and they

996
00:48:04,749 --> 00:48:02,539
said oh you know the Salvator Mundi is

997
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:04,759
coming up for sale and they were

998
00:48:09,309 --> 00:48:06,650
obviously looking for me to support it

999
00:48:11,289 --> 00:48:09,319
as a as a loan our dough I did a video

1000
00:48:13,870 --> 00:48:11,299
for them I said I'm not getting involved

1001
00:48:15,999 --> 00:48:13,880
on sale process but rather than have

1002
00:48:19,359 --> 00:48:16,009
lots of city staff appearing out there

1003
00:48:24,729 --> 00:48:19,369
has happened anyway I'm happy to do a

1004
00:48:29,410 --> 00:48:24,739
video establishing what the picture is

1005
00:48:32,620 --> 00:48:29,420
and how it works now did you have did

1006
00:48:33,910 --> 00:48:32,630
you have a pre-sale thought I've heard a

1007
00:48:37,870 --> 00:48:33,920
lot of people were tossing around the

1008
00:48:39,789 --> 00:48:37,880
figure of you know 100 125 million did

1009
00:48:42,099 --> 00:48:39,799
you have those any type of thought as

1010
00:48:44,650 --> 00:48:42,109
far as numbers go is that not your thing

1011
00:48:47,109 --> 00:48:44,660
well what what happens I am NOT an

1012
00:48:49,059 --> 00:48:47,119
expert on non sale prices and indeed

1013
00:48:53,109 --> 00:48:49,069
with Larry now nobody who's next better

1014
00:48:55,449 --> 00:48:53,119
on the sale price that's right there was

1015
00:48:57,519 --> 00:48:55,459
a guarantee of a hundred million dollars

1016
00:49:01,029 --> 00:48:57,529
on it which meant that Sotheby's had got

1017
00:49:04,509 --> 00:49:01,039
some backer to say at the end of the day

1018
00:49:06,549 --> 00:49:04,519
we will take it off you four hundred

1019
00:49:07,689 --> 00:49:06,559
million dollars and it may have been one

1020
00:49:12,339 --> 00:49:07,699
of the people who is actually bidding

1021
00:49:17,170 --> 00:49:12,349
and they so we don't know that the

1022
00:49:19,130 --> 00:49:17,180
pictures which bouvier which rebel off

1023
00:49:21,769 --> 00:49:19,140
laugh had been buying from boo via

1024
00:49:26,029 --> 00:49:21,779
he'd been selling them at a last bouvier

1025
00:49:28,099 --> 00:49:26,039
had these huge markups and movie I think

1026
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:28,109
have paid about seventy million dollars

1027
00:49:32,420 --> 00:49:30,450
for the picture and sold it for a

1028
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:32,430
hundred and thirty seven point five

1029
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:36,890
million dollars I think it was four to

1030
00:49:43,579 --> 00:49:41,130
two ruble off laughs and I I thought

1031
00:49:45,349 --> 00:49:43,589
well it's going to struggle to make a

1032
00:49:47,479 --> 00:49:45,359
hundred million dollars which is got

1033
00:49:51,499 --> 00:49:47,489
enormous money by your my terms but

1034
00:49:55,099 --> 00:49:51,509
nonetheless he'd been selling at a loss

1035
00:49:57,109 --> 00:49:55,109
I went to bed it was night being

1036
00:49:58,609 --> 00:49:57,119
auctioned at nighttime in Britain I went

1037
00:50:00,859 --> 00:49:58,619
to bed and I thought I can find out

1038
00:50:02,660 --> 00:50:00,869
about it in the morning and a two

1039
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:02,670
o'clock in the morning my phone begins

1040
00:50:10,970 --> 00:50:06,210
ringing and my email start going ping

1041
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:10,980
ping ping and the computer and so I then

1042
00:50:15,859 --> 00:50:13,170
heard the gun four hundred and fifty

1043
00:50:19,700 --> 00:50:15,869
million and of course the media then on

1044
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:19,710
to me so I did the sure about yeah for

1045
00:50:22,670 --> 00:50:21,210
the whole of the next day I think I

1046
00:50:25,789 --> 00:50:22,680
didn't have any breakfast I had a bit of

1047
00:50:28,370 --> 00:50:25,799
lunch I was going round round the studio

1048
00:50:32,569 --> 00:50:28,380
who's dealing with with media inquiries

1049
00:50:36,799 --> 00:50:32,579
and so on completely balmy yeah now what

1050
00:50:39,499 --> 00:50:36,809
is this how does this affect the of the

1051
00:50:41,569 --> 00:50:39,509
art world in the auction world do you

1052
00:50:44,089 --> 00:50:41,579
think there is an effect as far as

1053
00:50:47,150 --> 00:50:44,099
people getting involved and bidding with

1054
00:50:49,970 --> 00:50:47,160
this I know these don't come up but the

1055
00:50:51,979 --> 00:50:49,980
magnitude of something like this in a

1056
00:50:55,339 --> 00:50:51,989
sense is a one-off I mean Leonardo

1057
00:50:57,559 --> 00:50:55,349
writes his own rules he is in terms of

1058
00:51:00,109 --> 00:50:57,569
world culture he's a unique figure who

1059
00:51:04,039 --> 00:51:00,119
no bigger than Michelangelo Dante

1060
00:51:07,339 --> 00:51:04,049
whoever you whoever you want to want one

1061
00:51:09,170 --> 00:51:07,349
to name being in the lane our business I

1062
00:51:14,479 --> 00:51:09,180
know how extraordinary it is and how he

1063
00:51:18,470 --> 00:51:14,489
he transcends time geography categories

1064
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:18,480
of people etc and so extrapolating from

1065
00:51:22,069 --> 00:51:20,249
this soil into the art market more

1066
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:22,079
broadly is going to be dangerous but it

1067
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:24,210
it does provide a marker it means that a

1068
00:51:28,460 --> 00:51:26,249
picture can be worth that amount of

1069
00:51:31,420 --> 00:51:28,470
money it doesn't mean to say that

1070
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:31,430
there's going to be a sudden rush to pay

1071
00:51:36,260 --> 00:51:32,970
prices for these

1072
00:51:39,470 --> 00:51:36,270
things it requires something exceptional

1073
00:51:42,980 --> 00:51:39,480
to go beyond the world-record price to

1074
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:42,990
that degree and other paintings are very

1075
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:46,890
rare number in private captivity as it

1076
00:51:52,900 --> 00:51:49,890
were even rarer so I think it was a

1077
00:51:56,270 --> 00:51:52,910
one-off someone asked me at one point

1078
00:52:00,140 --> 00:51:56,280
what would happen to the Mona Lisa what

1079
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:00,150
would it sell for wild circulation I'm

1080
00:52:02,450 --> 00:52:01,890
sure it'd be in the billions but who

1081
00:52:05,359 --> 00:52:02,460
knows

1082
00:52:08,180 --> 00:52:05,369
yeah billion billion dollar picture yeah

1083
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:08,190
yeah now in a bourgeois Florentine woman

1084
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:12,770
it's amazing isn't it yeah yeah now the

1085
00:52:19,820 --> 00:52:16,410
the buyer there is speculation about the

1086
00:52:21,890 --> 00:52:19,830
buyer and that was you know tight lipped

1087
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:21,900
and I know how Auction Galleries I'm

1088
00:52:26,990 --> 00:52:24,330
sure signed something like a

1089
00:52:27,950 --> 00:52:27,000
non-disclosure they will not disclose

1090
00:52:31,310 --> 00:52:27,960
who the buyer is

1091
00:52:32,990 --> 00:52:31,320
I know that even in the middle of last

1092
00:52:34,700 --> 00:52:33,000
night an article came out in The New

1093
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:34,710
York Times about trying to root out the

1094
00:52:38,270 --> 00:52:36,930
buyer and speculation of the crown

1095
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:38,280
prince and all that have you been

1096
00:52:45,230 --> 00:52:43,290
following this yes I have not least my

1097
00:52:47,060 --> 00:52:45,240
former students and various other people

1098
00:52:52,099 --> 00:52:47,070
keep me up to date with what the New

1099
00:52:54,170 --> 00:52:52,109
Yorker is saying it the first reports in

1100
00:52:57,020 --> 00:52:54,180
New Yorker was that it had been bought

1101
00:52:59,829 --> 00:52:57,030
by Prince bad air leader I don't know

1102
00:53:04,040 --> 00:52:59,839
how you properly pronounce him al saud

1103
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:04,050
who is one of the lesser princes younger

1104
00:53:11,300 --> 00:53:07,890
obviously looks rather trendy as some of

1105
00:53:14,599 --> 00:53:11,310
the younger Saudi princes are and it was

1106
00:53:16,609 --> 00:53:14,609
he who the New Times I think correctly

1107
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:16,619
identified as the person who was

1108
00:53:22,849 --> 00:53:18,210
actually on the other end of the phone

1109
00:53:25,700 --> 00:53:22,859
bidding and he'd only declared an

1110
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:25,710
interest the day before apparently and

1111
00:53:31,099 --> 00:53:28,530
so Sotheby's Christie's had to do some

1112
00:53:33,380 --> 00:53:31,109
rather rapid due diligence to find out

1113
00:53:35,930 --> 00:53:33,390
that he wasn't a chancer that he was

1114
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:35,940
actually up to that kind of that kind of

1115
00:53:42,290 --> 00:53:39,690
money the second of the of the

1116
00:53:45,170 --> 00:53:42,300
revelations was based upon something

1117
00:53:46,490 --> 00:53:45,180
from US security who monitor all these

1118
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:46,500
people

1119
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:48,330
and said that it was the crown prince

1120
00:53:54,230 --> 00:53:51,210
who is a friend of Prince Padilla who

1121
00:53:57,020 --> 00:53:54,240
was actually the person trying to obtain

1122
00:54:00,620 --> 00:53:57,030
the picture that bad air Prince Padilla

1123
00:54:03,380 --> 00:54:00,630
was a proxy I have no way of knowing if

1124
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:03,390
this is right but it sounds plausible

1125
00:54:10,220 --> 00:54:06,930
and Christie's tweeted saying it's going

1126
00:54:12,830 --> 00:54:10,230
to lose Abu Dhabi right going to get go

1127
00:54:15,470 --> 00:54:12,840
on Luke on loan there which I hope is

1128
00:54:16,940 --> 00:54:15,480
right was it's a public collection I was

1129
00:54:19,700 --> 00:54:16,950
there at the opening and I did some work

1130
00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:19,710
for Louvre Abu Dhabi it's a great great

1131
00:54:24,950 --> 00:54:23,250
building and the Leonardo labelled

1132
00:54:29,660 --> 00:54:24,960
Ronnie air from the Louvre is already

1133
00:54:34,100 --> 00:54:29,670
there so I hope that bit of the story is

1134
00:54:37,070 --> 00:54:34,110
right and I'm I'm taking as plausible

1135
00:54:40,610 --> 00:54:37,080
that it's the crown prince who who's

1136
00:54:44,690 --> 00:54:40,620
bought this and his young friend acted

1137
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:44,700
as a as a proxy to kind of keep the heat

1138
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:47,210
off and off the Crown Prince as it were

1139
00:54:55,310 --> 00:54:50,970
yes I think that that's what I've been

1140
00:54:58,190 --> 00:54:55,320
following too now I was going to ask you

1141
00:55:02,630 --> 00:54:58,200
but hopefully this will go into a museum

1142
00:55:04,790 --> 00:55:02,640
one way or another because when someone

1143
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:04,800
steps up like this and by such an

1144
00:55:11,060 --> 00:55:08,610
important piece it's it's a well I think

1145
00:55:13,910 --> 00:55:11,070
it's a tragedy to be kept away from the

1146
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:13,920
public and there's really nothing people

1147
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:15,690
fight with their money when it comes to

1148
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:17,450
things like this there's no way to stop

1149
00:55:23,690 --> 00:55:20,210
going back into a private collection

1150
00:55:27,260 --> 00:55:23,700
anyway yeah well even if it's in Louvre

1151
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:27,270
Abu Dhabi yeah with the understanding

1152
00:55:31,460 --> 00:55:29,370
we've now got it would be on loan so

1153
00:55:33,830 --> 00:55:31,470
there's no guarantee it's not going to

1154
00:55:36,410 --> 00:55:33,840
be sold on again the problem for an

1155
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:36,420
institution is that it's quite outside

1156
00:55:42,950 --> 00:55:39,090
even the Getty in California or its

1157
00:55:47,330 --> 00:55:42,960
outside what their purchase power is so

1158
00:55:50,510 --> 00:55:47,340
he's a it's like and my hope was that it

1159
00:55:53,050 --> 00:55:50,520
would be bought by a museum with very

1160
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:53,060
powerful benefactor or benefactors

1161
00:55:58,190 --> 00:55:56,130
bankrolling the purchase this is the

1162
00:56:00,080 --> 00:55:58,200
next best thing at somebody who does

1163
00:56:02,270 --> 00:56:00,090
seem to be willing to share it

1164
00:56:05,810 --> 00:56:02,280
is interesting because of course is he's

1165
00:56:10,750 --> 00:56:05,820
a Saudi prince Saudi Arabia I'm not part

1166
00:56:15,020 --> 00:56:10,760
of the United Arab Emirates and of which

1167
00:56:17,930 --> 00:56:15,030
Abu Dhabi is part nonetheless it's it's

1168
00:56:20,780 --> 00:56:17,940
the obvious museum amenities the it's

1169
00:56:23,750 --> 00:56:20,790
the world museums the first world museum

1170
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:23,760
in the Arabic world and it has

1171
00:56:35,900 --> 00:56:33,200
within that Arab context of the Arab

1172
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:35,910
Emirates the Arab principalities and

1173
00:56:43,580 --> 00:56:39,090
kingdoms that some it's the best place

1174
00:56:46,430 --> 00:56:43,590
for it yes yes and I know there that a

1175
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:46,440
lot of buyers of the major art works

1176
00:56:51,890 --> 00:56:48,330
that have come up in the last few years

1177
00:56:54,740 --> 00:56:51,900
world record prices has been Saudi

1178
00:56:58,820 --> 00:56:54,750
buyers and hopefully some of those works

1179
00:57:01,220 --> 00:56:58,830
will be displayed as well yeah yes

1180
00:57:03,260 --> 00:57:01,230
they're buying into Western culture the

1181
00:57:04,970 --> 00:57:03,270
the big purchase I'm not an expert on

1182
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:04,980
the rap market you know it better than I

1183
00:57:09,650 --> 00:57:06,570
but the Russians obviously have been

1184
00:57:12,590 --> 00:57:09,660
buying large the Chinese to a degree but

1185
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:12,600
there are any dipping their toes into

1186
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:15,090
old master paintings as I understand it

1187
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:18,810
and the Saudis are much more alert to

1188
00:57:25,190 --> 00:57:22,890
the history of Western culture yes okay

1189
00:57:28,310 --> 00:57:25,200
now I'm gonna skip around a little bit

1190
00:57:31,460 --> 00:57:28,320
here this is all been really fascinating

1191
00:57:35,090 --> 00:57:31,470
as far as Leonardo choosing his

1192
00:57:36,530 --> 00:57:35,100
narratives for a painting do you know

1193
00:57:39,140 --> 00:57:36,540
how he'd go about doing that because I

1194
00:57:41,570 --> 00:57:39,150
think how many paintings I don't want to

1195
00:57:43,220 --> 00:57:41,580
skip around too much but they're known

1196
00:57:45,830 --> 00:57:43,230
paintings that he did there's not too

1197
00:57:48,890 --> 00:57:45,840
many right there's about 20 if you

1198
00:57:51,620 --> 00:57:48,900
include ones which are substantially low

1199
00:57:55,010 --> 00:57:51,630
Nardo but all produced directly under

1200
00:57:58,160 --> 00:57:55,020
his command yeah but it's a smallish

1201
00:58:00,140 --> 00:57:58,170
number this includes ones that shouldn't

1202
00:58:02,900 --> 00:58:00,150
be identified early on he was doing in

1203
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:02,910
Verrocchio's studio so I suppose if you

1204
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:06,930
want copper-bottomed mature wholly

1205
00:58:11,570 --> 00:58:09,450
painted by Leonardo I haven't done a

1206
00:58:13,610 --> 00:58:11,580
count but my guess is it would be about

1207
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:13,620
1516

1208
00:58:19,510 --> 00:58:15,810
amazing do you know how he chose his

1209
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:19,520
narratives before he started a painting

1210
00:58:27,230 --> 00:58:24,170
the subject matters take they vary and

1211
00:58:29,030 --> 00:58:27,240
an altarpiece for instance the ones

1212
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:29,040
whose commissioned early on in Florence

1213
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:31,610
during the first phase of his career for

1214
00:58:37,820 --> 00:58:35,370
the council Hall the the council

1215
00:58:40,100 --> 00:58:37,830
building in Florence and for the

1216
00:58:43,070 --> 00:58:40,110
monastery Sonata Oscar peyto those would

1217
00:58:44,660 --> 00:58:43,080
have been given to him one was a Madonna

1218
00:58:47,390 --> 00:58:44,670
a child and the other was an adoration

1219
00:58:50,330 --> 00:58:47,400
so they'd be given to him the Last

1220
00:58:52,730 --> 00:58:50,340
Supper for instance that's an

1221
00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:52,740
appropriate picture for a factory where

1222
00:58:58,010 --> 00:58:55,650
the monks eat and it's about bread and

1223
00:59:01,250 --> 00:58:58,020
wine after all so that again would have

1224
00:59:05,380 --> 00:59:01,260
been required a portrait like Mona Lisa

1225
00:59:08,750 --> 00:59:05,390
would be there be a request from

1226
00:59:11,570 --> 00:59:08,760
Francesco del Giocondo in this case and

1227
00:59:13,700 --> 00:59:11,580
for now just do the picture and

1228
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:13,710
Francesco del Giocondo and then others

1229
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:16,530
father were in close contact than others

1230
00:59:23,990 --> 00:59:19,170
father acted as a lawyer for Francesco

1231
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:24,000
del Giocondo but Leonardo also did what

1232
00:59:28,820 --> 00:59:26,850
we would call off the peg pictures he

1233
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:28,830
writes to the King of France or one of

1234
00:59:33,230 --> 00:59:30,450
his intermediates writes the King of

1235
00:59:35,030 --> 00:59:33,240
France at one stage saying I'm coming to

1236
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:35,040
see his most gracious Majesty and I'm

1237
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:37,410
bringing to Madonna's of different sizes

1238
00:59:44,540 --> 00:59:39,810
or I will paint something as the King

1239
00:59:48,770 --> 00:59:44,550
pleases so the smaller scale devotional

1240
00:59:51,260 --> 00:59:48,780
pictures could be done speculatively the

1241
00:59:54,050 --> 00:59:51,270
Salvator Mundi is not very small scale

1242
00:59:58,160 --> 00:59:54,060
but it's it's not a big altarpiece so

1243
00:59:59,960 --> 00:59:58,170
either somebody said I wish you to paint

1244
01:00:03,470 --> 00:59:59,970
a picture of the south toward Lundy for

1245
01:00:06,950 --> 01:00:03,480
me or he undertook it has an awful big

1246
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:06,960
picture it's it's an unusual subject for

1247
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:08,490
Lyon Ardo it's not simply a matter on ER

1248
01:00:13,490 --> 01:00:10,650
and child so I suspect that it is the

1249
01:00:16,070 --> 01:00:13,500
result of a patron saying please do a

1250
01:00:21,470 --> 01:00:16,080
image of the Salvator Mundi Foreman I

1251
01:00:23,450 --> 01:00:21,480
see now when you're up checking about

1252
01:00:26,580 --> 01:00:23,460
your door being fitted in there I

1253
01:00:30,180 --> 01:00:26,590
mentioned the Last Supper

1254
01:00:32,220 --> 01:00:30,190
I've noticed from recent images that it

1255
01:00:34,500 --> 01:00:32,230
looks in pretty rough shape and I do

1256
01:00:36,150 --> 01:00:34,510
remember he didn't seem like that many

1257
01:00:38,490 --> 01:00:36,160
years ago it was undergoing restoration

1258
01:00:41,930 --> 01:00:38,500
do you know what's what's going on with

1259
01:00:47,190 --> 01:00:41,940
that well the last suppers had a very

1260
01:00:50,070 --> 01:00:47,200
fraught history the Nardo painted on the

1261
01:00:53,330 --> 01:00:50,080
wall as if it was a panel he primed it

1262
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:53,340
with white lead which is impervious to

1263
01:01:00,380 --> 01:00:56,410
the water and therefore doesn't let the

1264
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:00,390
wall breathe he then used egg tempera

1265
01:01:06,390 --> 01:01:03,250
binding the pig pictures with a gravure

1266
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:06,400
than the normal and fresco media and

1267
01:01:12,090 --> 01:01:10,450
painting in wet plaster and it's aerated

1268
01:01:15,900 --> 01:01:12,100
rather rapidly and there have been

1269
01:01:18,060 --> 01:01:15,910
successive campaigns to restore it there

1270
01:01:19,890 --> 01:01:18,070
was big restorations before and after

1271
01:01:22,170 --> 01:01:19,900
the Second World War the refectory was

1272
01:01:27,270 --> 01:01:22,180
bombed in the Second World War and the

1273
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:27,280
picture barely survived and then there

1274
01:01:33,060 --> 01:01:29,770
was I think it's something like twelve

1275
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:33,070
years plus of restorations conducted in

1276
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:36,610
the late 20th century and which aimed to

1277
01:01:43,410 --> 01:01:39,850
strip off all the over paints and all

1278
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:43,420
the infilling and then to fill it in

1279
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:46,530
judiciously to make the picture work so

1280
01:01:52,140 --> 01:01:48,970
yeah if we're counting percentages of

1281
01:01:53,910 --> 01:01:52,150
paint surviving then the Last Supper is

1282
01:01:57,390 --> 01:01:53,920
much more damage than the Salvator Mundi

1283
01:01:59,850 --> 01:01:57,400
the amount of original paint surviving

1284
01:02:02,330 --> 01:01:59,860
in that is is quite low again I wouldn't

1285
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:02,340
wish to quantify that

1286
01:02:07,830 --> 01:02:05,650
yeahit's has a very checkered history it

1287
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:07,840
still makes its effect in spite of that

1288
01:02:14,550 --> 01:02:11,850
it's like hearing a great record from a

1289
01:02:16,620 --> 01:02:14,560
great singer of the past on a scratchy

1290
01:02:20,970 --> 01:02:16,630
record these things were remastered

1291
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:20,980
these days but you still get a sense of

1292
01:02:29,250 --> 01:02:23,530
its grandeur its expressive quality and

1293
01:02:32,490 --> 01:02:29,260
it's it's remarkable visual effect even

1294
01:02:34,590 --> 01:02:32,500
though it's something of a wreck

1295
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:34,600
now just a couple more questions for you

1296
01:02:40,329 --> 01:02:37,090
here are there any updates as far as you

1297
01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:40,339
know in Florence at the town

1298
01:02:46,359 --> 01:02:44,690
all of the weather the Battle of an

1299
01:02:48,940 --> 01:02:46,369
Gauri I don't know if that's pronounced

1300
01:02:51,489 --> 01:02:48,950
right actually exists on the in the wall

1301
01:02:53,769 --> 01:02:51,499
cavity of the Town Hall the Battle of

1302
01:03:00,370 --> 01:02:53,779
Anghiari like all things insurance has

1303
01:03:03,489 --> 01:03:00,380
become a very politicized event my

1304
01:03:08,069 --> 01:03:03,499
strong sense is that it won't have

1305
01:03:12,370 --> 01:03:08,079
survived there have been claims that the

1306
01:03:15,819 --> 01:03:12,380
there's a wall lining the put on by the

1307
01:03:18,700 --> 01:03:15,829
sari tan to line the the wall in which

1308
01:03:21,430 --> 01:03:18,710
learn are though painted has protected

1309
01:03:25,150 --> 01:03:21,440
the picture behind and I think that's

1310
01:03:27,370 --> 01:03:25,160
far from unclear to me the core samples

1311
01:03:29,529 --> 01:03:27,380
that were drilled through haven't come

1312
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:29,539
up with the fine plaster which would be

1313
01:03:34,959 --> 01:03:31,130
painted on they come up with some

1314
01:03:37,839 --> 01:03:34,969
plaster and rubble and if you imagine

1315
01:03:40,269 --> 01:03:37,849
that this is painted in oil which is

1316
01:03:43,029 --> 01:03:40,279
even more difficult to use on wolfson

1317
01:03:44,529 --> 01:03:43,039
tempera and it's being walled up with

1318
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:44,539
all the changes of temperature humidity

1319
01:03:51,759 --> 01:03:48,170
etc the chance of anything being left on

1320
01:03:53,229 --> 01:03:51,769
the wall is very very small but nothing

1321
01:03:58,200 --> 01:03:53,239
much is happening at the moment it's

1322
01:04:00,880 --> 01:03:58,210
just got bogged down the conservation

1323
01:04:04,450 --> 01:04:00,890
State Conservation Center in Florence

1324
01:04:08,229 --> 01:04:04,460
the fatuity la Pietra daughter as it's

1325
01:04:12,789 --> 01:04:08,239
called not in favor of the investigation

1326
01:04:16,749 --> 01:04:12,799
the the mayor matteo renzi and then

1327
01:04:19,269 --> 01:04:16,759
became the prime minister of italy he

1328
01:04:21,009 --> 01:04:19,279
was in favor of it but I think it's it's

1329
01:04:24,339 --> 01:04:21,019
not really being pursued at the moment

1330
01:04:27,609 --> 01:04:24,349
so I I think that's that from the moment

1331
01:04:32,249 --> 01:04:27,619
is a dead search yeah yeah with their

1332
01:04:36,069 --> 01:04:32,259
did they ever try to get some imagery

1333
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:36,079
through the wall yes they've done two

1334
01:04:41,890 --> 01:04:38,930
things merit so seracini the main

1335
01:04:44,410 --> 01:04:41,900
conservator involve has used various

1336
01:04:47,979 --> 01:04:44,420
techniques including sonic techniques

1337
01:04:51,700 --> 01:04:47,989
like radar thermal William imaging

1338
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:51,710
techniques and more laterally drilling a

1339
01:04:59,230 --> 01:04:54,170
very very small core sample

1340
01:05:01,210 --> 01:04:59,240
through the Vasari frescoes and going

1341
01:05:04,299 --> 01:05:01,220
through into what seems to be some kind

1342
01:05:06,309 --> 01:05:04,309
of gap behind the wall and he said all

1343
01:05:10,359 --> 01:05:06,319
we got pigments out which is same the

1344
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:10,369
same as used by Leonardo but all the

1345
01:05:15,579 --> 01:05:12,170
painters use the same pigments basically

1346
01:05:17,470 --> 01:05:15,589
I see okay now the last question I have

1347
01:05:21,339 --> 01:05:17,480
for you you were on the show before

1348
01:05:22,500 --> 01:05:21,349
talking about another possible apostle

1349
01:05:24,700 --> 01:05:22,510
possible

1350
01:05:27,609 --> 01:05:24,710
Leonardo discovery though of La Bella

1351
01:05:31,539 --> 01:05:27,619
principessa I just wondered where that

1352
01:05:34,539 --> 01:05:31,549
stood today yeah it stands much as it is

1353
01:05:36,099 --> 01:05:34,549
it's in a kind of limbo the problem was

1354
01:05:37,870 --> 01:05:36,109
that compared with the Salvator Mundi

1355
01:05:41,259 --> 01:05:37,880
which was introduced to Leonardo

1356
01:05:44,950 --> 01:05:41,269
scholars and we had time to digest this

1357
01:05:47,259 --> 01:05:44,960
and research it etc etc that was leaked

1358
01:05:50,650 --> 01:05:47,269
prematurely to the press which puts up

1359
01:05:52,359 --> 01:05:50,660
the backs of the of the art world they'd

1360
01:05:56,620 --> 01:05:52,369
rather know about what's what's

1361
01:06:00,779 --> 01:05:56,630
happening and it's been exhibited once

1362
01:06:04,599 --> 01:06:00,789
in a state gallery in Florence the in

1363
01:06:07,529 --> 01:06:04,609
vino of the birthplace of Rafa Raphael

1364
01:06:10,539 --> 01:06:07,539
but it's basically being exhibited

1365
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:10,549
commercially and it's very much in the

1366
01:06:16,779 --> 01:06:14,690
trade as the term goes and it's become

1367
01:06:18,789 --> 01:06:16,789
known as the kind of speculative trade

1368
01:06:22,900 --> 01:06:18,799
object which is not the objects fault

1369
01:06:25,390 --> 01:06:22,910
it's um it's just how it is so the

1370
01:06:26,859 --> 01:06:25,400
difference in handling between the

1371
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:26,869
Salvator Mundi and the Bella principessa

1372
01:06:32,319 --> 01:06:29,930
that portrait of Bianca sports or is it

1373
01:06:34,599 --> 01:06:32,329
almost certain years and that's

1374
01:06:36,660 --> 01:06:34,609
accounted for the public reception but

1375
01:06:40,539 --> 01:06:36,670
most art historians haven't seen it

1376
01:06:44,529 --> 01:06:40,549
really well so no it's an unsatisfactory

1377
01:06:46,930 --> 01:06:44,539
situation and it really needs to be out

1378
01:06:51,269 --> 01:06:46,940
in the in the public domain in a more

1379
01:06:54,849 --> 01:06:51,279
sustained way properly inspected and the

1380
01:06:56,440 --> 01:06:54,859
no it wasn't handled very well and

1381
01:06:57,940 --> 01:06:56,450
somebody who researched the die

1382
01:06:59,380 --> 01:06:57,950
obviously needs to take some

1383
01:07:02,160 --> 01:06:59,390
responsibility for that

1384
01:07:05,109 --> 01:07:02,170
I wasn't handling the publicity for it

1385
01:07:08,020 --> 01:07:05,119
right right well hey thank you so much

1386
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:08,030
it's been a pleasure as always

1387
01:07:15,580 --> 01:07:11,050
and your website one more time is wo w

1388
01:07:17,500 --> 01:07:15,590
mr tan J Kemp comm correct that's is

1389
01:07:19,810 --> 01:07:17,510
correct I'm also writing this book for

1390
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:19,820
Oxford University Press on the Salvator

1391
01:07:25,510 --> 01:07:23,090
Mundi which should should be out next

1392
01:07:26,050 --> 01:07:25,520
year sometime so it's not quite finished

1393
01:07:29,260 --> 01:07:26,060
yet

1394
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:29,270
excellent okay well thanks so much okay

1395
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:29,930
my pleasure

1396
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:32,690
all right all right everyone so that's

1397
01:07:36,550 --> 01:07:35,330
it for the show today thanks for thanks

1398
01:07:38,590 --> 01:07:36,560
for watching if you're watching on

1399
01:07:41,020 --> 01:07:38,600
YouTube or listening if you're listening

1400
01:07:45,910 --> 01:07:41,030
to the podcast these podcasts can be

1401
01:07:49,900 --> 01:07:45,920
found at antique auction forum comm also

1402
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:49,910
you can listen in iTunes or your media

1403
01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:53,810
player there's I believe 184 counting

1404
01:07:59,260 --> 01:07:56,450
this one shows that are free to you to

1405
01:08:01,510 --> 01:07:59,270
listen to a lot of them are you know

1406
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:01,520
informational so check it out antique

1407
01:08:08,170 --> 01:08:04,610
auction forum calm also my appraisal

1408
01:08:09,730 --> 01:08:08,180
website seaboard appraisals calm thanks

1409
01:08:13,770 --> 01:08:09,740
so much and we'll be back again with